I have been trying to decide if I should use the Pirelli scorpion all season or fork out for winter tyres

Searched and finally found some real figures here http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/how-t...on#slide-1

Braking


Normal acceleration


Hill climb



This does show winter being the best in braking and hill climb mainly so steering should also be improved  Wanted a Series 2 LR since childhood but previously owned MY16 Disco Sport HSE TD4 Auto, MY13 RR Sport Black Edition TDV6 Auto, MY10 RR Sport HSE TDV6 Auto, 2007 Freelander 1 Freestyle TD4 Soft Top, 2009 Freelander 2 GS TD4 Auto, 2007 Freelander 2 GS TD4, 2004 Disco 2 Metropolis Auto, 2002 Disco 2 GS, 2000 Freelander 1 SE TD4 SW

Still hoping for a S2 one day!

Another report http://www.caranddriver.com/features/winte...ason-tires

Taking into account these are all lighter than the rrsport then presumably the difference should be greater  Wanted a Series 2 LR since childhood but previously owned MY16 Disco Sport HSE TD4 Auto, MY13 RR Sport Black Edition TDV6 Auto, MY10 RR Sport HSE TDV6 Auto, 2007 Freelander 1 Freestyle TD4 Soft Top, 2009 Freelander 2 GS TD4 Auto, 2007 Freelander 2 GS TD4, 2004 Disco 2 Metropolis Auto, 2002 Disco 2 GS, 2000 Freelander 1 SE TD4 SW

Still hoping for a S2 one day!

You're comparing a specialist tyre (the winter tyre) with a compromise tyre (the all season). The winter tyre will be better because it's designed for the conditions - not least the rubber is formulated to work at low temperatures.

If you made the same comparison between summer and all season tyres in August you'd find that the all season again came second.

The all season tyre makes sense if you venture off tarmac because they are available as off-road capable tyres. Summer and winter tyres are really tarmac tyres. Winter tyres do get the M&S marking but that is just an indication that they have a higher ratio of voids to blocks in the treads. It should be noted that all season tyres perform well in fresh snow because they hold snow in the grooves - snow sticks to snow and that's how you get traction. On compacted snow/ice the all season loses out because it lacks the sipes of the true winter tyre. It'll likely still be better than a true summer tyre however because the more aggressive blocks will give some bite where the summer tyre will lose out. Full off road tyres often struggle in cold conditions because the rubber is designed to be tough to resist cuts and chipping off road. This toughness doesn't help it grip on cold tarmac because the rubber becomes harder still. Again, they'll work well in fresh snow but not so well on compacted snow/ice.

My take on the hierarchy of tyre use:

For winter tarmac use:
1. Winter tyres
2. All season tyres
3. Summer tyres unless it's on snow/ice
4. Off road (mud) tyres unless it's on snow where it'll be better than the summer and all season tyres (and even the winter tyre if the snow is deep and soft)

For summer tarmac use:
1. Summer tyres
2. All season tyres
3. Winter tyres (they work well in summer but give less good braking / cornering grip as the blocks are too flexible in warm conditions. Still better for pure road use than a mud tyre however)
4. Off road (mud) tyres

For off road use
1. Off road (mud) tyres if conditions are muddy or greasy
2. All season tyres if the conditions aren't too muddy 2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
2008 TDV8 - it was a labour of love and is much missed

I see that one of the UK mags has done a "4WD vs winter tyres on FWD". They found, unsurprisingly, that 4WD on all season tyres gave better acceleration traction than winter tyres on FWD but that winter tyres on FWD were better in cornering and braking. The conclusion was that people shouldn't buy 4x4 but should just buy winter tyres.

The piece seemed to be a political one aimed at getting the number of 4x4s reduced. In some ways, I support their view that people buying 4x4 and then driving them stupidly (such as thinking that 4WD gives benefits in winter condition just because it's 4WD) are a menace. What they should have done is also tested the 4x4 with winter tyres and showed that it's excellent in winter conditions.

My view is that winter tyres should be pushed for all vehicles, not just FWD/RWD cars. Indeed, one piece of legislation I would be in favour of would be the requirement to fit winter tyres between October and March. I think it would solve a lot of the "snow causes traffic chaos" stuff that we see, particularly in the South East, whenever a few flakes fall from the clouds. It would probably be a benefit to the economy too - people getting to work rather than slithering around or sitting in jams caused by others slithering around. It would remove one bit of fun for drivers of winterised 4x4s though - we wouldn't get to pull people up the slight inclines that summer tyres refuse to climb in snow...  2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
2008 TDV8 - it was a labour of love and is much missed

I have seen the articles claiming fwd with winter tyres better than 4x4 but chose to ignore them  Wanted a Series 2 LR since childhood but previously owned MY16 Disco Sport HSE TD4 Auto, MY13 RR Sport Black Edition TDV6 Auto, MY10 RR Sport HSE TDV6 Auto, 2007 Freelander 1 Freestyle TD4 Soft Top, 2009 Freelander 2 GS TD4 Auto, 2007 Freelander 2 GS TD4, 2004 Disco 2 Metropolis Auto, 2002 Disco 2 GS, 2000 Freelander 1 SE TD4 SW

Still hoping for a S2 one day!

 2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
2008 TDV8 - it was a labour of love and is much missed

Still undecided what to do and would like to know if anyone has experience of all season tyres and winter tyres - is it that much better for the money you have to spend

It appears from my research that winter tyres biggest problem is handling in the wet - considering most of our winter is wet rather than ice/snow this is a concern for me

Articles are one thing and a couple of meters or a second difference sounds ok but real owner experience is what I would be most interested in  Wanted a Series 2 LR since childhood but previously owned MY16 Disco Sport HSE TD4 Auto, MY13 RR Sport Black Edition TDV6 Auto, MY10 RR Sport HSE TDV6 Auto, 2007 Freelander 1 Freestyle TD4 Soft Top, 2009 Freelander 2 GS TD4 Auto, 2007 Freelander 2 GS TD4, 2004 Disco 2 Metropolis Auto, 2002 Disco 2 GS, 2000 Freelander 1 SE TD4 SW

Still hoping for a S2 one day!

I would suggest that the handling "issue" with wets is in extremis. I doubt you drive your RRS anywhere close to that level of grip requirement on the public highway - or at least I hope you don't. Wet braking is a bigger issue than "handling" which is, to be fair, a very subjective issue. Winter tyres tend to do well in wet braking because they have lots of space between the tread blocks. Add cold tarmac and the winter tyre is in its element.

As for owner experience versus test outcomes, I'd take test outcomes. A tyre might feel like it is stopping well but might actually be worse than one that performs immaculately but feels "soft" in its performance, if you see what I mean. Average Joe drivers are not good judges of the transient things because they do not have the experience required to judge between two tyres that might only be a few percentage points different from each other. Most people will probably only buy tyres every 2 or 3 years so they are likely to experience only a dozen or so different tyres in their lives - unless they change vehicles on a very frequent basis of course.

Hell, I'd be much happier to buy a tyre that stopped a couple of metres shorter than one that felt good when I was leaning the thing on it's wing mirrors in the corners. Look at the physics of a car's braking and you see that even in the last second they still have a lot of energy. Energy that results in damage and injury if it's dissipated in an impact rather than the brakes.

As an example, I had my Vred Wintracs refitted t'other day and, so far, in warm, generally dry, conditions they are not noticeably different from the Pirelli Scorpion ATRs previously fitted. The ATR is an "all season" tyre. This is driving "enthusiastically" but not madly, by the way. I do know that the Wintracs performed very well in the last two winters giving reassuring braking performance and cornering that felt grippy and no worse than the all seasons had in the summer. But then I've only driven my RRS on winter tyres in the winter so how can I say if it is good or not on all seasons in winter (see my point above). In general, winter tyre users will say they're great and those who do without winter tyres will say that they manage fine on whatever tyre they use. As I said before, Joe Average's opinion is fairly worthless because he doesn't do the comparisons necessary to build up the personal experience.

The basic issue is that winter tyres perform better in cold conditions - that is tarmac that is less than 7degC. The all season tyre is a compromise in all conditions because it can't be "winter soft" or it would fall apart in summer, neither can it be "summer performance" or it would be too hard for winter. As for cost, I don't see it as an issue - my winter tyres have done two winters and look to have enough tread left for at least one more winter. The ATRs had lots of tread left after a couple of summers' use too. So that's a lot of miles for the money - I'd bet the total cost would be no more than just running all season tyres 12 months/year. And even if it does work out to be a few quid more, isn't it worth it to know you have the best possible tyres for the conditions? When I see what people spend on modding their RRS and then blanch at winter tyres to keep the thing shiny side up in poor conditions, I wonder about their priorities, to be honest. 2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
2008 TDV8 - it was a labour of love and is much missed

Fab critique RRSTDV8, practical, informative, and evidence based.

Cheers rrstdv8

You make a good case - I don't mod my vehicle or thrash it to the limit but I have never had winter tyres or an issue with all season on any of my previous LR's in summer or winter so still undecided

My tyres usually last full ownership so don't normally buy tyres - only exception being the conti summer tyres I had to replace on the last RRS

I don't need to drive for work as I work from home and if the weather is bad can stay at home

I will have to spend £1000+ to fit winter tyres and just not sure if it's worth it for me. Added to this the concern about braking in wet which will be my main driving - particularly bad on the wintrac highly rated on here according to test reports you can see my dilemma

Quote:

7th: Vredestein Wintrac 4 Extreme
Total: 15 / Dry: 6 / Wet: 4 / Snow: 5
Positive: Very low rolling resistance, short braking on snow, good aquaplaning.
Negative: Long stopping distances on wet roads, poor wet cornering, high noise.

Lets face it - like most things; it's really down to what you can afford.

If you have the cash then go for the best you can; so it is premium winter tyres for winter and then change to premium summer tyres. Winter tyres should also be on a narrower rim to perform best!

All season tyres gives you a pretty good compromise; you might like to consider that All-season generally perform better in rain than summer tyres and, has been said, give fairly good off-road capability !

Muddy, unless you live out in the sticks or at the top of a steep hill, id save my money. With the mileage you do which seems pretty low, the tyres you have on now are more than capable to get you out of most sticky situations. Adjust your driving style accordingly. Makes sense to me. I'm sure you can think of better things to spend 1k on.

I'd second what Ady says, remember the big snowfall late 2010? The roads here were impassible for a few days, but on standard tyres mine coped without any drama, with all the electrical gizmos , you would have to be driving like a numpty to put it in a ditch. In fact I gave a demo to a neighbour in 'grass/gravel/snow' mode buried the throttle and the revs nearly moved - the system basically took over and wouldn't let me go any faster until it stopped breaking traction.
Ice might be the only time winter tyres are worth it, when you are all cosy in the cabin and you have to make an emergency stop for whatever reason
Cheers
Dave MY10 TDV6 SE (debadged ), Santorini Black, Flappy paddles, Privacy Glass, 20" Stormers, Mudflaps!

Gone: a comprehensive list of imprezas and a Merc ML AMG

Yeah, If you havn't got the money then don't bother..... 2013 RRS SDV6 Autobiography Fuji White
2007 RRS TDV8 HSE - gone -
2005 RRS TDV6 HSE - gone -

It's not just a case of saving money after buying a new RRS

It's about safety and value for money - like I said I've never felt I needed winter tyres in all the years I've owned lr's until I realised the last one had summer tyres but now I'm back on all seasons not sure if worth spending more money on winter tyres when most of my driving will be wet roads when they are worst

Never having driven on winter tyres I am not qualified to answer this

Oh and ady - swmbo can find plenty of places to spend the grand  Wanted a Series 2 LR since childhood but previously owned MY16 Disco Sport HSE TD4 Auto, MY13 RR Sport Black Edition TDV6 Auto, MY10 RR Sport HSE TDV6 Auto, 2007 Freelander 1 Freestyle TD4 Soft Top, 2009 Freelander 2 GS TD4 Auto, 2007 Freelander 2 GS TD4, 2004 Disco 2 Metropolis Auto, 2002 Disco 2 GS, 2000 Freelander 1 SE TD4 SW

Still hoping for a S2 one day!