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Home > Technical > Adding two stroke oil to fuel. yes/no

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TheWojtek

Member Since: 08 May 2015
Location: Poznań, Poland
Posts: 737

2010 Range Rover Sport TDV8 HSE Buckingham Blue

Brian Considine wrote:

A local to me MOT Station often gets diesels that just fail the smoke test** - their advice is to run some two-stroke or Whynns through with a couple of tankfuls - guess what ? second time they pass.

Does it mean the two-stroke oil fixes a faulty engine? No. It can not fix anything. What it does, it masks the underlying issue for a while. More on how it does it below.
BTW does the MOT Station sell the Whynns or 2-stroke oil on the premises?

Side note 1: the 2-stroke engines were effectively banned from widespread use in automotive mostly because of their sevenfold 4-stroke hydrocarbons emissions. Those hydrocarbons come from the oil, not fuel. The fuel is notably burnt better - this is why 2-strokes are in general more efficient compared to 4-stroke engines. Sadly, a fair amount of the oil is emitted as unburnt vapour. HC emissions will always be higher in an engine that runs on a mix of diesel fuel and 2-stroke oil, because with the 2-stroke oil in the fuel system you introduce way more hydrocarbons into the combustion chamber and this oil will not burn even in a petrol 2-stroke engine (it would be useless as a lubricant if it would), yet alone in a diesel that has way lower combustion chamber temperatures.

Brian Considine wrote:
So, IMHO that quantifies as "empirical evedence".

Nope.
This is anecdotal evidence. We don't know how many owners were turned away for the reason of faulty engine. We don't know if any of them actually used any additive. We don't know if they did anything else to their engines. We don't know how many of those who passed for the second time did exactly nothing. We have no blind sample and we have no control group. This is textbook anecdote (and biased _opinion_ at the same time).
The science that leads to know the unknown relies on precise data that is already known (or even better - a controlled environment). This here is a tale of unknown number of some cars we have no idea if serviced in the meantime or not, in some MOT station.
I do not try to tell that that didn't happen. What I am telling is that there is zero statistical relevancy between a random MOT station that tells people to put whatever into their tanks and 1.47 billion vehicles in the world (as of end of the 2023).

Brian Considine wrote:
use additives will continue to do so (after all it cannot do any harm).

Oh, they do. 2-stroke oil with all the HC content will strain the DPF and will shorten the lifespan of the cats. The cats are designed for 15 years of use by an average Joe, so they are only able to contain as much HCs. Once you introduced more HCs into the fuel system, you get more HCs in the exhaust - especially if it is the 2-stroke oil, designed to not burn in the combustion chamber.
So your cats designed to trap unburnt HCs works overtime. It is only efficient at around 95% for the most of its life anyway and will light the CEL if its efficiency drops below 93%, Introducing even 1% more of hydrocarbons into the fuel system will shorten the cat lifespan because maths. BTW a 1% drop in cat efficiency is more or less equal to 50% increased emissions.

Now since the manufacturers tend to overengineer things a bit and err on the side of caution, an average Joe putting 2-stroke or whatever into his tank may never experience a cat malfunction. His vehicle will never pass the 300k or 400k-mile mark when the cat is technically dead. So he will sure as hell say "I do it all the time and nothing happened!" - which, again, is anecdotal evidence not qualifying to anything close to a scientific method.
Also, the vehicles "ran for the past 30 years with 2-stroke oil added" are so primitive compared to a modern engine (see the "used frying oil" example somewhere in this thread, I bet it has got a mechanical injection pump) that their emission systems, if they exist, may even not be designed to warn the owner of the reduced functionality.

So the average Joe (and their friend, and the friend of a friend who all been told the wonder effects of putting 2-stroke oil into their tanks every fillup) will pollute more but hey, why care for another human with lung cancer when the NHS is literally drowning in all this government money.

Side note 2: an engine treated with 2-stroke oil into the fuel system will certainly make an impression of running better. Plain and simple: more HCs, more power. What is getting burned in an ICE are hydrocarbons, that what fuel consists of. And some of the HCs contained in this oil will burn. The older the engine, the better feel it will have. Some of this oil will stay on the cylinder walls, improving compression and combustion and making the engine work even better. This is not a fix though, this is masking the issue with a band-aid and as any car mechanic knows, this is a recipe for an even bigger repair bill in the future. And since the 2-stroke oil is designed to withstand the burn process and exits the exhaust as unburned HCs, which will clog the cats, will pollute more and will have an impact on the combustion process (most likely the combustion temperature will rise, which can spell trouble, especially for modern engines).

Now admittedly - 200cc per 80 litres tank is a small value. So perhaps it is actually OK to say "knickers, it will not do the engine any harm for sure"?
Maybe right. Maybe not. But if we put this very argument au contraire it actually becomes proof that the 2-stroke oil is not able to do anything good to the engine.
So long-term it is a harmful placebo. Short-term it is a desperate temporary measure.

Brian Considine wrote:
the fuel companies themselves tell us they put additives in it

Putting 2-stroke oil and fuel additives in the same basket is a gross misconception.
These additives are something completely different from the hydrocarbons found in 2-stroke oil, resembling rather a decent standalone diesel additive. They contain mostly glycol alkyl ether, aromatic ethoxylated surfactants, with addition of cetane number enhancers, injector detergents and lubricants. As little hydrocarbons as possible. There is a rather thorough analysis (longread warning) here https://dieselnet.com/tech/fuel_diesel_additives.php Regards etc.,

Wojtek

---
WAS: 2006 RRS Supercharged
IS: 2010 RRS TDV8 HSE

Sun Jan 07 2024 3:29pm

Andy K

Member Since: 18 Sep 2015
Location: GL
Posts: 4940

2005 Range Rover Sport TDV6 HSE Rimini Red

Out of interest how many Covid jabs have you had ?

Sun Jan 07 2024 3:50pm

Pistnbroke

Member Since: 22 Sep 2020
Location: rugby
Posts: 412

2009 Range Rover Sport TDV6 HSE Galway Green

Thanks brian what ratio do you use or quantity per tank full ...I see you have the 2.7 like me. Always listen to old people or when they die you will live on in ignorance.
The avatar is a picture of the man with a big cock.
Learned to 4x4 on 100 mile beach and Frazer Island QLD
Dont spend money on old cars you will never get it back

Sun Jan 07 2024 4:15pm

jimbg

Member Since: 29 Jan 2013
Location: By the River Dart
Posts: 1829

2013 Range Rover Sport SDV6 HSE Orkney Grey

Excellent post from Wojtek whose posts I really respect.

2023 P440e SE Dynamic on order -cancelled

2022 HSE Dynamic P400e

2017 Discovery 3.0 HSE Silicon Silver Nimbus interior and a few extra toys SOLD

2013 HSE Black, Orkney Grey, Ebony Seats and Ivory Interior SOLD

2006 HSE

Plus a few other cars inbetween!

Sun Jan 07 2024 5:04pm

RRSTDV8

Member Since: 12 Aug 2011
Location: Northamptonshire
Posts: 8971

2012 Range Rover Sport SDV6 HSE Orkney Grey

Brian Considine wrote:
RRSTDV8 wrote:
Total snake oil nonsense.

It started with an internet post about using it and it snowballed - no actual empirical evidence just a load of supposition and anecdote. It's the QAnon of engines, basically.

Use good fuel. Change the oil regularly. Use decent oil and filters. Anything else is bunkum.

Well that's you opinion, to which you are entiltled too, but then again you seem to have to have an opinion on almost everything.

A local to me MOT Station often gets diesels that just fail the smoke test** - their advice is to run some two-stroke or Whynns through with a couple of tankfuls - guess what ? second time they pass. So, IMHO that quantifies as "empirical evedence".

** including well maintained diesels running on decent branded fuel.

FWIW I've run new diesels for the past 30 years or so using either Millers or two-stroke - every single one has covered 250/350kplus miles, still running well and never, ever an engine issue with any of them. Wheras other people I know, who don't use additives have issues.

What it boils down to is those that use additives will continue to do so (after all it cannot do any harm).
Do you have any "empirical evedence" to the contrary ?
Those that are against additives will not use them.

You contradict yourself anyway by promoting "decent fuel" because the fuel companies themselves tell us they put additives in it !

I've never run 2SO in any of my diesels and none of them have had any issues, including ones that were in the 150-200k miles range.

So what does that prove according to your logic?

An aftermarket additive such as Millers is similar to the stuff the fuel companies put it - it's a chemical cocktail designed to clean the fuel system. 2SO isn't. 2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
2008 TDV8 - it was a labour of love and is much missed

Last edited by RRSTDV8 on Sun Jan 07 2024 5:59pm. Edited 1 time in total

Sun Jan 07 2024 5:51pm

RRSTDV8

Member Since: 12 Aug 2011
Location: Northamptonshire
Posts: 8971

jimbg wrote:
Excellent post from Wojtek whose posts I really respect.

Likewise, a great post. 2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
2008 TDV8 - it was a labour of love and is much missed

Sun Jan 07 2024 5:55pm

riverblanche

Member Since: 11 Jun 2011
Location: Retford'ish
Posts: 1134

Hi,

I added 2sO to my TD5 for about 9 years and never had injector or emission issues and the emissions were the cleanest the MOT garage ever had on a TD5 (same garage all the time we had it)

also used on x3 2.7 L/R engines, last was a D3 2008 and no idea if it did any good
but sure it did no harm either so after the TD5 I was happy to use it and if it is Snake Oil it only has to work in your head for it to be worth while using, so for me it works

decided not to use on the 3.0 we have had, do to DPF's ect

ratio was 200:1 which for 50L of fuel is 250ml of 2sO.

Porsche Cayenne 2022
gone Porsche Cayenne 2020
gone Corris Grey HSE Dynamic 2016
gone Ipanema HSE lux 2010
gone Rimini HSE 2005
!!

Sun Jan 07 2024 6:42pm

Pistnbroke

Member Since: 22 Sep 2020
Location: rugby
Posts: 412

No one has mentioned which type of two stroke oil ,,,there are ones for air cooled 2 st which run at a higher temperature and those for water cooled outboards which run lower more like our cars.
Clearly the only lubrication they give is to the injector system.
I think 200 :1 is far too high ...many 2st run with 100:1,,,,,,400 or 800:1 would probably do the job, Always listen to old people or when they die you will live on in ignorance.
The avatar is a picture of the man with a big cock.
Learned to 4x4 on 100 mile beach and Frazer Island QLD
Dont spend money on old cars you will never get it back

Mon Jan 08 2024 8:11am

Andy K

Member Since: 18 Sep 2015
Location: GL
Posts: 4940

https://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/2-stroke-oi...hlight=2so

Yes there is a type you must use

Mon Jan 08 2024 9:54am

Brian Considine

Member Since: 26 Mar 2022
Location: SE UK
Posts: 93

TheWojtek wrote:
Brian Considine wrote:

A local to me MOT Station often gets diesels that just fail the smoke test** - their advice is to run some two-stroke or Whynns through with a couple of tankfuls - guess what ? second time they pass.

I'll just answer this one (life's too short for the rest & I don't really think you read my post correctly anyway.)

The vehicles in question had no other work done to them & FWIW the garage don't sell two-stroke or Wynns. 2006 RRS 2.7 HSE.

Mon Jan 08 2024 10:47am

TheWojtek

Member Since: 08 May 2015
Location: Poznań, Poland
Posts: 737

Brian Considine wrote:
The vehicles in question had no other work done to them

Is this an educated guess, evidence-based knowledge, anything in between?
Assuming you have thorough knowledge of all the vehicles you mentioned as proof of your statement (unlikely), my explanation still stands. Adding 2SO will make an impression of a suddenly healthier engine. Heck, it may even be that sealing the leaks between cylinder walls and piston rings offsets the added HC content for some time and for a tank or two it will run cleaner. Band aid on a broken leg.

Brian Considine wrote:
FWIW the garage don't sell two-stroke or Wynns.

I honestly can't decide if suggesting a band aid on a broken leg for free is worse than pushing it for money or not.

Brian Considine wrote:
I don't really think you read my post correctly anyway.

Quite the contrary, I did, which is why I gave you a detailed answer ranging from what does actual science think about "empirical evidence" as provided, to a pro/contra of the 2SO oil in a modern engine.
I am not disappointed you waived your opportunity to contest applied logic and scientific facts, though. That was expected.

Brian Considine wrote:
life's too short for the rest

Elegant and respectful, thank you. Regards etc.,

Wojtek

---
WAS: 2006 RRS Supercharged
IS: 2010 RRS TDV8 HSE

Mon Jan 08 2024 4:05pm

Brian Considine

Member Since: 26 Mar 2022
Location: SE UK
Posts: 93

Pistnbroke wrote:
Thanks brian what ratio do you use or quantity per tank full ...I see you have the 2.7 like me.

I tend to refil my tank when it gets about half empty - I put around 125ml in. 2006 RRS 2.7 HSE.

Mon Jan 08 2024 6:50pm

Lrstaylor

Member Since: 10 Mar 2022
Location: Kent
Posts: 344

2006 Range Rover Sport Supercharged Bali Blue

The main reason I added 2so to our tdi engines was to prevent the build up of ring gumming as I ran it mostly on svo mixed with 5% petrol or miss fuel from my mates garage.

Iv seen plenty of ring gumming on engines running svo without 2s oil added in my time. My engine had none and as said is still going strong at silly high milage. It was the nissan 2.7 tdi engine same one they use to fit in black cabs back in the day. It still has original injectors to.

Tue Jan 09 2024 11:05am

Jellis39

Member Since: 21 Apr 2019
Location: Melton Mowbray
Posts: 64

I do it, makes a difference and wouldn’t bother if it didn’t. Only been involved in engines etc for 25 years so may be wrong.

Tue Jan 09 2024 9:17pm

riverblanche

Member Since: 11 Jun 2011
Location: Retford'ish
Posts: 1134

Hi,

I'm with Brian, I think it works so I would still use it,
and have always added at 200:1,
there is much to read on the D3 side of life

have not mentioned which grade/spec as would need to look at the bottle to confirm, ISTR its Jaso FC mineral and Not synthetic

if anyone is going to add some to try, then have a read yourself to confirm

just for ref my 2St bike runs at 50:1 and super unleaded.

Porsche Cayenne 2022
gone Porsche Cayenne 2020
gone Corris Grey HSE Dynamic 2016
gone Ipanema HSE lux 2010
gone Rimini HSE 2005
!!

Wed Jan 10 2024 1:35pm

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