For our kid's sake we should remain.

The EU has flaws but can - slowly - be fixed from the inside.

There is no dramatic liberation by a Brexit vote. Just some economic bumps and the realisation that 90 of 100 most costly EU legislation would need to be retained (just ask Norway) to maintain 45% of our exports. Our bargaining power with Russia and China would be diminished. When we wake up and finally realise that America and Russia's victory of WWII (the Brits did their bit but too little too late to be decisive) meant the break up of the British Empire and, with it, our ticket to future growth. As a standalone country, potentially minus Scotland, we'd make as sorry a sight, just as the poor Egyptians do following the epic demise of their once mighty kingdom BC.

Put another way: Vote Out and Britain becomes tomorrow's Egypt. Vote In and EU becomes tomorrow's USA. Better to be part of the latter, I'm thinking.

Plus Putin and Trump want us to leave.. That sets my alarm bells ringing. L405 P400e Autobiography (MY2020)... Silicon Silver / Espresso
RRS TDV6 HSE Lux (MY2011)... Nara Bronze / Arabica - now gone!

Still, money can be won. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/201...-to-happen Regards etc.,

Wojtek

---
WAS: 2006 RRS Supercharged
IS: 2010 RRS TDV8 HSE

Just heard an interesting snippet on the R4 news at 1100............... A poll in France asked people Leave or Remain like the UK? More than 50% of respondents said Leave! Worrying times for the plutocrats in Brussels and Strasbourg! 2020 Pangea Green 1st Edition D240 New Defender 110 is here and loving it
2018 Melting Silver Mini Countryman PHEV - soon to be replaced
2015MY Corris Grey SDv6 HSE Dynamic, the best car I have ever owned, totally reliable only a cou0le of rattles in 3 years, now no longer in my care
Also in my garage is a 1996 TDi300 Defender 90 County HT made into a fake CSW

The French only want to leave because they fear the Brits will remain. Which we will!  L405 P400e Autobiography (MY2020)... Silicon Silver / Espresso
RRS TDV6 HSE Lux (MY2011)... Nara Bronze / Arabica - now gone!

OUT, why would we want to be poor relation to the united states of Europe. We are not in the currency, we don't share the same beliefs and values. They will bleed us dry and will always be outvoted. An EU army is in the making, and quite rightly! Why does each member state need budgetary control and wasting money on their own defence plans? The federalised states do not need their own identity and defence, this is better managed and commanded through the undemocratic unelected Brussels elites who will look after the member bloc.

No doubt OUT will hurt the economy short term, long term is there a prosperous future in?

As a REMAIN I think my concern goes beyond short term economic bumps. If you can picture Farage or Johnson shouting "Freedom!" with their faces painted with a red cross then I think they are conning you. They are not revolutionaries, they're just career mad politicians.

The future concern is that the EU actually works..! as it has indications of doing so over the next couple of decades due to the mounting pressure of reform (even Germany agrees, the Netherlands etc). It would race ahead and become THE powerhouse of our continent forming a tri-force of USA, EU and China. Over time countries like Britain would be useful but ultimately trivial and expendable allies to these super-powers, with little influence and no seat at the table (very bad politically).

Example, imagine an Asia Union - would Japan want to be part of it? You bet. As it stands it's an isolated island surrounded by powerful neighbours who do not like it much with zero prospect of ever being a powerful nation in their children's lifetimes. A decline that started in the 1990s and gets worse and worse and worse.

I don't think there would be a war in Europe or anything, but investment in research, financial services and manufacturing would wane. Efforts by Britain to compete with EU neighbours would force us (literally) to adopt EU regulation and tedious trade negotiations.

Surely Scotland would have another independence referendum by 2019 swiftly followed by Wales. And Northern Ireland, what about them? I predict the collapse of the UK.

That leaves England. Alone. This green and pleasant land with fewer factories, fewer banks (not necessarily a good thing!), and just a vacuum cleaner-cum-fan heater business, some seasonal pick-your-own and a rugby team that keeps talking about 2003. JLR would relocate to Hyderabad. BMW to Bavaria. Low paid workers would leave in large numbers leaving me to wash my own car. Fewer johnny foreigners would come to the UK to study driving up tuition costs or driving down quality (one of the two).

So I don't think OUT is the path that provides the greatest posterity and widest opportunity for my 8 month old mini-me, and that is all I care about. Therefore I have to say REMAIN.


This article from The Economist summarises how we (& Cameron) got ourselves into this mess and highlights how the referendum is just so NEGATIVE from both sides of the argument. It's a shame given its importance.
http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/217...nged-their

I'm going for a lie down now. L405 P400e Autobiography (MY2020)... Silicon Silver / Espresso
RRS TDV6 HSE Lux (MY2011)... Nara Bronze / Arabica - now gone!

I beg to differ. Locking ourselves in the EU box is terrible for trade and competitiveness. These economic unions simply give market preferences that we need to avoid. We need a global outlook without favouring certain markets over others, we need a fairer immigration system that doesn't discriminate against those from outside the EU and we need to work together as allies, not boss each other around and enforce commonality.

The correlation with Scottish independence isn't necessarily strong enough, and it doesn't put Scotland and any easier position to go independent. Wales is plenty eurosceptic enough, and I think there's enough in NI too - the DUP is the biggest party after all, and they are avocating a vote to leave.

A Yougov map shows Wales isn't exactly europhile:

Click image to enlarge

ilard wrote:

just a vacuum cleaner-cum-fan heater business

Everyone can quote figures on both sides, all the numbers are doubtful. For me it is really very simple. Who do you want running the country? A British parliament, or unelected EU figures.

We need to look 10 years/20 years, do we want our children to abide to the EU state or have the ability to vote for policies and laws that they feel is best for their country.

The EU is not a trade organisation it is a political party now, and by joining IN you are electing to be governed by foreign bodies.

The EU is elected. The EU Parliament (MEPs) are elected directly by the people. The Council of Ministers is an elected representative from each country depending on what is being discussed e.g. Ministers of Agriculture if discussing agriculture. Then there are the heads of state of each country that get together as the European Council. The European Council sets the political direction that the EU takes. The Parliament passes legislation that is brought forward by the European Commission. The Commission takes direction from the Council I.e. the heads of state group. The Commission is made up of one Commissioner from each State who is appointed by that State. There is a layer of bureaucrats below this who are analogous with the UK civil service.

The Commission asks every country for their views on proposed legislation before it gets to the Parliament. Countries can say "no" and stuff stops. The UK Government has said "yes" to 97% (from memory) of everything put before it.

The EU is entirely democratic. But hey, it's full of stinking foreigners so it must be bad, eh?

The real issue is that the EU is generally of a more socialist tendency than the average Brit. The UK seems to want to be like the US, which is ironic as it is indeed the federal state that "leave" people seem to fear.

Remember, however, that no matter what the outcome tomorrow, this referendum was never about Europe. It was always about the control of the Conservative Party. We're just going to have to pay the bill if there is a coup i.e. if "leave" wins. When Boris says "take back control" he means of the Tories... 2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
2008 TDV8 - it was a labour of love and is much missed

if Britain is so important to the EU why haven't the unknown, unelected bureaucrats with no fiscal accountability in Brussels with their highly EU-expensed lifestyles haven't spent some of our money in popping over to Britain to plead the case for Britain to remain in the EU? Where are they?

They should also stop and have a good chat with our war veteran heroes about the democracy that they fought for and for whom many of their friends and thousands of others have died for.

We can show the qualities of who we are as a nation as we should be proud of our services, people, sovereignty and democracy and look to share our lives, our country, our values and our compassion with those like-minded neighbours who value this and want to be part of it by sharing the best part of themselves too in agreed and fair collaboration with mutual respect. We need to vote LEAVE so we as a nation with the history that we have can rise to our full potential as a democracy to sustain, protect and grow together with like minded peoples and not give this right away to unelected bureaucrats with their own agendas who we do not know, have no say in their decisions and cannot ever remove them from office, even if their policies damage the country. We need to go now. Let tomorrow be our Indepedence Day. Let's make Britain Great again. Come on, Vote Leave.

Before you vote, read this:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/j...e-you-vote L405 P400e Autobiography (MY2020)... Silicon Silver / Espresso
RRS TDV6 HSE Lux (MY2011)... Nara Bronze / Arabica - now gone!

One good reason to vote out, is that the EU accounts have never been signed off by an auditor or office.
The EU is riddled with thieving politicians, who will fiddle and lie to feather their own nest. Look out Blair as a prime example.
If you want Great Britain to be great, and be able to control immigration, make its own laws, without EU telling us what rapists we cannot send back as its against the EU laws, and tell us who we can trade with, not send £345 million a week yo EU, and you have all come across or read in the last few years all the mad restrictions to us because we are ruled not by UK parliament but by Brussels and the EU,
then the only sensible answer is to vote Out. John

RRS MY12 SDV6 HSE. Sumatra Black/Ebony & Walnut + Dynamic Pack, + Cold Climate Pack + Memory Pack, Digital TV/DVD, Premium Leather, Cornering Lights, Cooler/Fridge Box, & most Options.

ilard, RRSTDV8: you're wasting your energy. Let me waste some of my time here too. There are 3 main underlying reasons/motives driving support for Leave, no matter how they sugarcoat it and no matter what excuses they come up with. I will not list those reasons here ( don't want to get banned ). Due to the very nature of those reasons, they will not be convinced regardless of how factual, logical and objective your arguments are. Most prefer believing sensationalist and populist media outlets than (being capable of) researching facts

As an example, only recently my employer explained to the staff in one of our hubs WHY (legal and compliance issues to name a couple) they may be forced to relocate those particular operations out of the UK in case of BREXIT. We are talking thousands of jobs and this is just one company. It's a global business, it won't suffer from moving some ops to a different (possibly more open, willing and competitive) location. Casualties will be workers and economy of THIS country. This ain't "scaremongering", it's a reality.

For me, scenarios like above aren't even the reason to be in the Remain camp. Personally I will be unaffected or possibly even gain from it. I believe EU represents something worth protecting and improving that is way bigger than the worry of short to medium term economic shocks. Seems some people will only appreciate the benefits once they are no longer available. The phrase "shooting one's self in the foot" has never been more suited to a situation  Current: Volvo XC90 T8 Inscription Pro PHEV with some optionals on top
Gone: MY16 RRS2 3.0 SDV6 Autobiography Dynamic, Carpathian Grey & Santorini Black Sliding Pano/Ebony & Ivory 2 Tone
Gone: MY13 RRS 3.0 SDV6 HSE Black Edition, Orkney Grey/Ivory
Gone: MY09 RRS 2.7 TDV6 HSE, Santorini Black/Almond

ilard wrote:

Before you vote, read this:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/j...e-you-vote

That's an excellent article. Shame the xenophobes, bigots and mouth-breathers voting Leave won't read it or understand it...  2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
2008 TDV8 - it was a labour of love and is much missed