Shame you have nothing better to do than fling those pathetic words about...  Visiting from DISCO3.CO.UK
2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 Auto HSE Zambezi Silver

I've given up trying to reason with people who have been taken in by the jingoistic rubbish spouted by Farage, Johnson et all.

The EU is not undemocratic, we already have control, we will not be able get great trade deals. Britain is not "great" in the sense that people use it.

If the Commonwealth should last for a thousand years, people will say that voting Leave was their biggest mistake. To borrow from Churchill. 2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
2008 TDV8 - it was a labour of love and is much missed

Oh and while a points based immigration system may address (to a certain extent) filling jobs that people here CAN'T do, good luck using that to get immigrant workers in to do the jobs that people here WON'T do. Current: Volvo XC90 T8 Inscription Pro PHEV with some optionals on top
Gone: MY16 RRS2 3.0 SDV6 Autobiography Dynamic, Carpathian Grey & Santorini Black Sliding Pano/Ebony & Ivory 2 Tone
Gone: MY13 RRS 3.0 SDV6 HSE Black Edition, Orkney Grey/Ivory
Gone: MY09 RRS 2.7 TDV6 HSE, Santorini Black/Almond

It's not democratic. No matter what the system is, the relationship with the electorate is not there so it cannot be democratic. There are plenty of things we cannot control. We don't need trade deals, and we would be perfectly capable of getting them if we did.

Plenty of us are not jingoistic, xenophobic, racist or bigoted. Plenty of us are very clear and are not buying into the tosh that remain cite as being sensible or realistic. Plenty of us have clear outward looking and considered views and deserve better than to derrogatory and totally untrue labels pinned on us.

 Visiting from DISCO3.CO.UK
2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 Auto HSE Zambezi Silver

Another good read for those not-so-easily-manipulated by pointless rhetoric and those that still may have an open mind: https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/why-uk-should-remain-eu Current: Volvo XC90 T8 Inscription Pro PHEV with some optionals on top
Gone: MY16 RRS2 3.0 SDV6 Autobiography Dynamic, Carpathian Grey & Santorini Black Sliding Pano/Ebony & Ivory 2 Tone
Gone: MY13 RRS 3.0 SDV6 HSE Black Edition, Orkney Grey/Ivory
Gone: MY09 RRS 2.7 TDV6 HSE, Santorini Black/Almond

Some of us will have to spin off a separate forum: www.rrsport.eu

But we shouldn't get overexcited about this. Remain is going to win so we just need to get over it and put pressure on the politicians to do the right thing with Brussels.

Plus I have £10 riding on Remain at 1.30 (that's a pitiful 3/10), so when I collect my £3.40 winnings tomorrow morning I'm going to get myself a nice bacon 'n egg croissant, put my feet up, and plan my retirement in the south of France for 30 years from now.  L405 P400e Autobiography (MY2020)... Silicon Silver / Espresso
RRS TDV6 HSE Lux (MY2011)... Nara Bronze / Arabica - now gone!

Oh, cwap, retirement is 20 years from now. Where has my life gone?  L405 P400e Autobiography (MY2020)... Silicon Silver / Espresso
RRS TDV6 HSE Lux (MY2011)... Nara Bronze / Arabica - now gone!

Just think how many "immigrants" we will end up with if there is a vote to leave.............. All those who have retired to various parts of the EU who will have to pay for their health services in Europe who will return for their "Free" NHS, all the Civil Servants in the UK who only deal with EU legislation, all the UK Civil servants working in Brussels and Strasbourg, all the UK MEP's who earn vast fortunes in salary and expenses (Farage will be one of them!), all the UK lobbyists in various UK and EU parliaments............... The unemployment benefits are going to cost a fortune, and where are they all going to live as it appears we don't have houses for all who live here now? 2020 Pangea Green 1st Edition D240 New Defender 110 is here and loving it
2018 Melting Silver Mini Countryman PHEV - soon to be replaced
2015MY Corris Grey SDv6 HSE Dynamic, the best car I have ever owned, totally reliable only a cou0le of rattles in 3 years, now no longer in my care
Also in my garage is a 1996 TDi300 Defender 90 County HT made into a fake CSW

A bit unfair painting ALL Leave supporters with the racist/bigot brush IMHO. There are those too who just can't stand the competition they face from smarter and harder working people with a strong work ethic

A colleague from a Commonwealth country showed me an official email he received from an expat supporting organisation from his country that he is subscribed to. They were urging people to vote Leave so that they can benefit from the points based system and boost number of immigrants from their country to the UK. I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with that, just making the point that different Leave supporters have different agendas. Just like Remain people have different reasons to stay. These are not 2 homogenous groups. Current: Volvo XC90 T8 Inscription Pro PHEV with some optionals on top
Gone: MY16 RRS2 3.0 SDV6 Autobiography Dynamic, Carpathian Grey & Santorini Black Sliding Pano/Ebony & Ivory 2 Tone
Gone: MY13 RRS 3.0 SDV6 HSE Black Edition, Orkney Grey/Ivory
Gone: MY09 RRS 2.7 TDV6 HSE, Santorini Black/Almond

Lost for Words wrote:

It's not democratic. No matter what the system is, the relationship with the electorate is not there so it cannot be democratic. There are plenty of things we cannot control. We don't need trade deals, and we would be perfectly capable of getting them if we did.

Plenty of us are not jingoistic, xenophobic, racist or bigoted. Plenty of us are very clear and are not buying into the tosh that remain cite as being sensible or realistic. Plenty of us have clear outward looking and considered views and deserve better than to derrogatory and totally untrue labels pinned on us.

It is exactly as democratic as the UK.

Try doing trade with countries like the US, China, other European countries without trade deals. You either get hit with tariffs or you make agreements. The first things that the EU will require in any agreement will be freedom of movement and meeting EU regulations. So exactly what we have now but without any control of those regulations.

In fairness, you have been considered in your posts on the subject so I apologise for lumping you in with many who do fit the descriptions I used.
I still think you're wrong though.  2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
2008 TDV8 - it was a labour of love and is much missed

Appreciated, though likewise, I still think you're wrong too.

The primary reason why it is not as democratic as the UK is simply because of the scale. 68,000 electors per MP, vs over 600,000 electors per MEP, plus different languages and people from other countries miles away that people have never heard of. It all means the electorate is not able to connect well and so the feedback system that is so essential to democracy is lost. It also puts a dampener on our own politics as people become increasingly disenchanted with it.

Oh, and I'm not saying that tariffs wouldn't be applied in trade, but we can cope with that, and if we lower our tariffs, other countries stand to gain by lowering their own too. We wouldn't have to accept free movement because we do not need free access to the single market, however, from the other side, they would be very keen for us to retain free trade, and as the German BDI said yesterday, they would consider it madness to impose tariffs on us. You see, my point is that being without the single market would be better for trade and competitveness in the long term, and a deal with the EU now would simply make things easier, but not be essential at all. 78% of the world's GDP is not in the EU.

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2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 Auto HSE Zambezi Silver

I voted OUT this morning.

My primary reason is that we are dictated to by a bunch of people who have only their own country's best interests at heart (some are elected, a lot aren't). Unfortunately we're not French, who just ignore stuff they don't like and the majority of our government is spineless, so we just roll over and take it. Cameron's effort to get a better deal was a complete farce and just shows the pitfalls and dangers of working with a group of 28 own agendas.

I think, more than anything, what has firmed my view is the way the government has treated the voters like a bunch of children in the past few months - as if we can't be allowed to make our own decision and have to have our hand held so as we make the "right" (in their view) one. Totally patronising.

I voted OUT as well. Immigration is out of control. Australia has the right idea on immigration. We must have full control of our borders.

since the voting station only provide pencils those who voted wrong can be changed by the powers that be to get the vote their preferred way

Can i start using my old bottle of Round Up yet, or are we still deciding on the vote

^^ Wouldn't bloody surprise me