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SPX

Member Since: 26 Dec 2012
Location: South Yorkshire
Posts: 587

2008 Range Rover Sport TDV8 HST Java Black

Very Annoyed wrote:
Always amazed me that miners wanted their sons to be miners too. If I were a miner I would want my son to get a better/safer job.

Which miners were this?

I know a fair few ex-miners and none of them would have wanted their sons to go down the pit if they could help it, but life wasn't always that straight forward.

Wed Apr 10 2013 11:51am

Jonny Fresh

Member Since: 04 Feb 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 3586

I think it is disgusting the way people are commenting and celebrating, mostly on facebook. Normally by unemployed scum.

I think she was a great woman and her passing should be cause for mourning not celebration. Some awful people around.

Wed Apr 10 2013 12:16pm

jimbg

Member Since: 29 Jan 2013
Location: By the River Dart
Posts: 1829

2013 Range Rover Sport SDV6 HSE Orkney Grey

Jonny Fresh wrote:
I think it is disgusting the way people are commenting and celebrating, mostly on facebook. Normally by unemployed scum.

I think she was a great woman and her passing should be cause for mourning not celebration. Some awful people around.

And they probably are too young to have been around when she was PM.

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Last edited by jimbg on Wed Apr 10 2013 2:29pm. Edited 1 time in total

Wed Apr 10 2013 1:19pm

Chrale

Member Since: 14 Feb 2013
Location: North East
Posts: 77

2007 Range Rover Sport TDV6 HSE Java Black

I may be slightly out of trend here too but, I feel the funeral plans are too much. Full military honours? While I was young in the days of stint as PM, I'm not ignorant to reading and listening to my parents thoughts at the time. I'm not going to get into a political debate on her running of the country but I don't think it warrants a full military honours funeral.

There's only Churchill in the last 100yrs who got that and he at least brought the country together! 2007 TDV6 HSE

Wed Apr 10 2013 1:25pm

P7tey

Member Since: 03 Oct 2012
Location: Devon
Posts: 144

2005 Range Rover Sport TDV6 HSE Zermatt Silver

Chrale wrote:
I may be slightly out of trend here too but, I feel the funeral plans are too much. Full military honours? While I was young in the days of stint as PM, I'm not ignorant to reading and listening to my parents thoughts at the time. I'm not going to get into a political debate on her running of the country but I don't think it warrants a full military honours funeral.

There's only Churchill in the last 100yrs who got that and he at least brought the country together!

Believe it or not Churchill was just as devisive!
As for Military Honours, MT's efforts during the Falklands Conflict were tremendous and courageous. Look at the footage of returning troops from the South Atlantic and you will see a country united as it ever will be.

As for those who celebrate her passing, that is disgusting and in most cases ignorant. I expect most of them don't even know what the community charge was, let alone know why they disapprove....

Wed Apr 10 2013 1:34pm

Chrale

Member Since: 14 Feb 2013
Location: North East
Posts: 77

My father was in the Falklands conflict. A lot of the servicemen seen it different!

I'm not for one second saying she was bad for the country and I think she deserved the title 'Iron lady', but sadly as we all know, we can only form opinions on what we read and what the government drip feeds us. 2007 TDV6 HSE

Wed Apr 10 2013 1:42pm

SPX

Member Since: 26 Dec 2012
Location: South Yorkshire
Posts: 587

BigCat8810 wrote:
I would beg to differ on your view of history SPX. Lady T was no fan of apartheid but nor was she a fan of radical Marxist terrorists which like it or not, was central to the ideology of the ANC back then. The ANC was not purely a group opposed to the SA regime, they were dedicated to the spread of radical Marxism across the region through violent action.

Lady T called for Nelson Mandela’s release and pushed the SA government to reform, although she remained opposed to stringent economic sanctions which would have damaged the SA economy & the lives of all SA citizens regardless of colour or creed.

To be clear she was never a supporter of apartheid or the regime which governed SA at the time but again in the context of the time her description of the ANC is not wholly inaccurate.

Re Pinochet, that is more interesting, however, again historical context has relevance. During the Falklands campaign in 1982, Chile was one of the very few South American countries who provided support (perhaps more than we know) which was important when we faced conducting a war so far from home. Also whilst I cannot claim Lady T had direct influence in the transition to democracy in Chile, it was Pinochet who stood down for a peaceful transition, rather than any last desperate bloody stand.

I don’t think Lady T was a supporter of any dictatorship, however, she valued the support our country received at a crucial time, which may have saved the lives of British military personnel.

‘Politics makes strange bedfellows’ - not sure who said that!!

All due respect, quoting from Wiki doesn't make the best of defences.

It's common knowledge that she was active in the support of apartheid, anyone that opposed her way (or Reagan's) of thinking was labelled a Marxist which all sounds a bit 1950's.

Wed Apr 10 2013 2:38pm

mse

Member Since: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 2916

Kensta wrote:
Your not a lone voice SPX

Not by a long shot

The bnak problems, housing problems, unemployment problems are all a result of thatcher policies - there were better ways to improve things.

When will people realise life is about people and living not money, destroying people does no one any good.

Quote:
A lot of manufacturing was killed by a combination of militant unionism and incompetent management.

Actually you are right about the unions really killing it by how they went about what they did.

Management, im not so sure

But one thing that did screw it up was a serious lack of investment when national and this was the governments fault - they didnt really sell it off properly

Land Rover and latterly jaguar were different to a range of the layland group - land rover turned a profit i think all the time, Mike

2014 Facelift Discovery

Wed Apr 10 2013 2:54pm

BigCat8810

Member Since: 20 Feb 2012
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 132

2008 Range Rover Sport TDV8 HSE Santorini Black

Oh now SPX without wishing to sound patronising, you must now be the one joking to suggest the ANC were not a communist organisation promoting revolution & engaged in violence!!

Not from Wiki or whatever you referred to, try the ANC’s own website which states;

‘The ANC is in an alliance with the South African Communist Party(SACP) and the Congress of South African Trade Unions (COSATU). Each Alliance partner is an independent organisation with its own constitution, membership and programmes. The Alliance is founded on a common commitment to the objectives of the National Democratic Revolution, and the need to unite the largest possible cross-section of South Africans behind these objectives.’

There is no question they engaged in acts which at the time would be categorised as terrorist & their actions left many killed and injured. The violence in SA was not all from the government forces and there were innocent victims on both sides.

In regard to your statement that it was ‘common knowledge’ that Lady T supported apartheid, well perhaps you’d prefer an article from The Guardian than my previous post. Whilst the article is not claiming Lady T. did as much as Special AKA to promote the end of apartheid, I fail to see how you can substantiate your claim that she actively supported it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/1...id-mandela

I must state my own position here, I’m no fan of apartheid or any such repressive system, but I am currently feeling the need to defend against what I see as a lot of unsubstantiated nonsense which is being spouted in the name of fact in regard to the recently deceased Lady T.

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Wed Apr 10 2013 3:45pm

SPX

Member Since: 26 Dec 2012
Location: South Yorkshire
Posts: 587

BigCat,
by your reckoning, anyone that wants to overthrow a regime that oppresses the indigenous population is communist? I suppose, also by your reckoning, MT could do no wrong?

Her greatest strength was to get weak people to follow her, those people that showed strength and stood up to her and her ideology were routinely crushed, not sidelined, crushed. And this is something to be applauded?

Wed Apr 10 2013 4:15pm

BigCat8810

Member Since: 20 Feb 2012
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 132

SPX wrote:
BigCat,
by your reckoning, anyone that wants to overthrow a regime that oppresses the indigenous population is communist? I suppose, also by your reckoning, MT could do no wrong?

Her greatest strength was to get weak people to follow her, those people that showed strength and stood up to her and her ideology were routinely crushed, not sidelined, crushed. And this is something to be applauded?

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying! The ANC state on their own website that they are communists, committed to revolution. FACT. It’s not me calling them communist it’s their own words!

So it's not difficult to see why Lady T did not swoon all over Oliver Tambo & crew in the context of the 60's, 70's & 80’s when such groups were seen as a threat in many parts of the world and our former foes in the Eastern block were promoting revolution across the globe, it was a serious threat at the time & not easy to understand in the context of today when such regimes have largely disappeared. This does not make her a supporter of apartheid, in fact the Guardian article I shared explains how she provided armed protection for ANC people in London, hardly a good strategy if you support the SA government.

I stated in previous post, Lady T made mistakes, she was after all human, so hardly supports you point that in my view she could do no wrong.

I don't agree with your view of her greatest strength point either! I think she had many qualities & helped ensure the freedom of many oppressed people whether they be Falkland Islanders or those who lived under the tyranny of the Eastern Block before the wall came down.

And can you provide any evidence to back up your claim that she supported apartheid as if this was so widely known where is the proof??

Sorry to be so pedantic but my point with all this is that it’s all very well saying she was this or that but whilst I’ve tried to provide independent corroboration of my points (as you seemed to suggest my views were based on suspect material) I’ve seen little proof to support your claims.

I guess we’ll not agree on a lot of this but I cannot see how anyone can claim she supported apartheid. --------------------------------------------------------
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Wed Apr 10 2013 4:50pm

pussy

Member Since: 22 Feb 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 1749

I think it is disgusting the way people are commenting and celebrating, mostly on facebook. Normally by unemployed scum. [/quote]

As previously featured on Jezza Kyle guru to the GBU," Great British Unwashed" and no I am not on Satan's direct hot line lovingly called FACEBOOK!! Is only for the benefit career minded uneducated layabouts!

MT did what she had to do at the time, good or bad a legacy of recovery was left, the road to recovery was never taken up after she left and we are in a big toilet now with a stuck flush!

Cant please everybody, it was and is a difficult position to be in. no regrets!
ONE LIFE LIVE IT.

Wed Apr 10 2013 8:08pm

RRSTDV8

Member Since: 12 Aug 2011
Location: Northamptonshire
Posts: 8971

2012 Range Rover Sport SDV6 HSE Orkney Grey

SPX wrote:
BigCat,
by your reckoning, anyone that wants to overthrow a regime that oppresses the indigenous population is communist? I suppose, also by your reckoning, MT could do no wrong?

Her greatest strength was to get weak people to follow her, those people that showed strength and stood up to her and her ideology were routinely crushed, not sidelined, crushed. And this is something to be applauded?

Ah yes, ad hominem - the sign of a winning position...

(Of course there is a certain irony in pointing out ad hominem as it might, in itself, be considered to be taking a similar position but hey, we're all friends here I'm sure

) 2012 SDV6 - it's missing a couple of cylinders
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Wed Apr 10 2013 10:18pm

jim4244

Member Since: 16 Feb 2012
Location: No
Posts: 1210

2013 Range Rover Sport SDV6 HSE Santorini Black

She was a real patriot who always put Gt Britain first!

Jim

Thu Apr 11 2013 7:07am

BigCat8810

Member Since: 20 Feb 2012
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 132

RRSTDV8 wrote:
SPX wrote:
BigCat,
by your reckoning, anyone that wants to overthrow a regime that oppresses the indigenous population is communist? I suppose, also by your reckoning, MT could do no wrong?

Her greatest strength was to get weak people to follow her, those people that showed strength and stood up to her and her ideology were routinely crushed, not sidelined, crushed. And this is something to be applauded?

Ah yes, ad hominem - the sign of a winning position...

(Of course there is a certain irony in pointing out ad hominem as it might, in itself, be considered to be taking a similar position but hey, we're all friends here I'm sure )

Well I just had to look that up courtesy of Wiki, which is ironic, but if their definition is to be trusted (not sure SPX will agree) then RRSTDV8 you make a very good point.

I’m more than happy to be proven wrong, but do feel like I’m

in my quest for some proof to back SPX's claim that Lady T ‘actively supported apartheid’ and so far I’ve seen nothing. --------------------------------------------------------
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Thu Apr 11 2013 8:29am

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