Workalot would welcome opinions and advice on recently appearing issues.

Problem(s): Intermittent voltage loss loss to...

a) Touch panel.

b) Air conditioning.

c) Radio.

d) Temperature and fuel gauges.

e) RPM and speedometer gauges.

f) Window controls.

g) Remote key fob interface. Doors cannot be locked by fob key,
but can start the car by placing fob next to pickup point.

h) And maybe others - eg haven't checked side mirror adjustments.

Problems occur independently. That is, problem may individually
occur on any of the above while others are ok. Sometimes all
problems occur, though not necessarily simultaneously.

Sometimes touch panel, air con and radio fail together.

Sometimes power may come good to any of these items but will
return to problem state.

Observations:

Original battery was recently replaced. This was about 3 weeks
before the issues turned up.

Initially the faults appeared once the car has 'heated up'
and on hot days appeared sooner. If left to cool down the
car returned to normal.

But as of today (29-Nov-2022) faults appear on cold start.

regards,

Workalot

Certainly not a auto electrician, but I think I would initialy check the new battery, could be a bit suspect.

Cheers
Col

Definitely get the battery checked. Just cause it’s new, doesn’t mean it works. Seen plenty of new out of the box parts fail/be faulty.

In 2010/2011’s there’s an odd connector in the rear left side behind the plastic for the canbus system. If it corroded everything throws a hissy fit. Not sure it’s in 2012/2013’s, but if it is it may be worth checking. 2011 RRS HSE Luxury 3.0 TDV6 Fuji White on Ebony/Ivory
Born and raised in So Cal. Moved to the UK in 2018 for a few years. Now in Poland and looking at moving back to the UK.

Ok, first thing - the car's VIN indicates it is an 2013 RRS L320 3.0 diesel, and not an RRS 2012 as I reported. It was built July 2012.

To 'Col': Thank you - did a digital voltmeter check with ignition off (12.5V) and when engine is running (~15V). Stuck a made up analog voltmeter in the cigar lighter to see if the needle flickers as the faults did their thing - but no observable needle flicker did I see. This of course, may not be an absolute battery test.

To 'NoExpert': Also thank you. Your 'hissy fit' is apt. I'm drawn to the argument of CAN Bus. At...

https://landroverforums.com/forum/range-ro...ues-98725/

... are posts of similar distress.

My background is one of electronics (industrial, not automotive) and I can see how communications between CAN Bus modules may be affected. A wounded CAN Bus module may present an open circuit on a loop network, or may present a short circuit on a star network. But this would present a 'hard' fault and be traceable.

Inter module communications may also be affected by a faulting (intermittent?) connection, maybe at a wiring harness point. How I wish I could obtain schematics to do some tracing/debugging.

regards,

Workalot

Could potentially be the gauge cluster is faulty and needs to be repaired/replaced. 2011 RRS HSE Luxury 3.0 TDV6 Fuji White on Ebony/Ivory
Born and raised in So Cal. Moved to the UK in 2018 for a few years. Now in Poland and looking at moving back to the UK.

To keep the story going.

Workalot has done some searching/researching/downloading and has learnt...

1) Two CAN bus signal sets are presented at the RRS diagnostic connector V100 .

2) One is the high speed CAN on pin 6 (Hi) and pin 14 (Lo). It is the one associated with OBD2 and connects amongst the propellent ECUs. Thankfully this is working.

3) The other CAN is medium speed on pin 3 (Hi) and pin 11 (Lo). It circulates from the Instrument Panel (J100) to the Central Junction Box ( P101). Theses two modules carry the termination resistors of 120 ohm.

I have isolated the battery and a resistance check yields 110 ohm, not the expected 60 ohm. Houston, we have a problem.

Could there be some electrical savvy folk reading this and perhaps make comment? My initial thinking is to unplug connector C1629 at the Automatic Temperature Control Module (D243). It may the easiest access point for me, I have not expertise nor the tools for the dismantling of automotive components.

If my understanding is correct C1629 takes Hi/Lo signals on one set of pins (22,21) and connects to another set of pins (10,9) presumably at the mating connector half.

If this could be achieved then...

1) A resistance reading of 120 ohm at the diagnostic connector (V100) would confirm the Instrument Panel is okay. Otherwise the wiring between diagnostic connector, or the IP is at fault.

2) If the IP measures 120 ohm then the wiring between the connector C1629 and the CJB is faulty, or the CJB may be at fault.

Are there any posters that have worked with these issues?

regards, Workalot

Just to add...

Reason for disconnecting C1629 is to isolate the CAN bus ends.

Also, the electrical diagrams show connection points as an SJ number - what are they?

Workalot

Thought S/J was abbreviation for Splice Joint where several wires are joined together, only downside is they could be located anywhere in the circuit I think.

Cheers
Col

Yes - 'splice joint'. My immediate thinking was 'solder joint' - but that would never do in an automotive environment.

Workalot wrote:

Workalot would welcome opinions and advice on recently appearing issues.

Problem(s): Intermittent voltage loss loss to...

a) Touch panel.

b) Air conditioning.

c) Radio.

d) Temperature and fuel gauges.

e) RPM and speedometer gauges.

f) Window controls.

g) Remote key fob interface. Doors cannot be locked by fob key,
but can start the car by placing fob next to pickup point.

h) And maybe others - eg haven't checked side mirror adjustments.

Problems occur independently. That is, problem may individually
occur on any of the above while others are ok. Sometimes all
problems occur, though not necessarily simultaneously.

Sometimes touch panel, air con and radio fail together.

Sometimes power may come good to any of these items but will
return to problem state.

Observations:

Original battery was recently replaced. This was about 3 weeks
before the issues turned up.

Initially the faults appeared once the car has 'heated up'
and on hot days appeared sooner. If left to cool down the
car returned to normal.

But as of today (29-Nov-2022) faults appear on cold start.

regards,

Workalot

Want to keep a dialogue going...

Firstly, thank you(s) to those who have kindly responded.

The battery is above suspicion; two auto electricians have since attached their diagnostics apparatus. The first one confirmed DTCs present which immediately reappeared once cleared which was during the faulting stage. Their recommendation (at no charge) was to put this in the hands of the Land Rover dealer.

Workalot did that, contacted the dealer for discussion. Dealer referred me onto an outside auto sparky. That sparky didn't want to know. Seems mention of CAN bus terrorizes them.

So, the 2nd auto electrician. Here we go: the between time of the 1st inspection and 2nd inspection the car came good! All functions worked and still work. That is, except for the air conditioning control panel, the A/C is operational but cannot be turned down/up/off. Not a worry here at the moment.

The 2nd auto electrician came by way of an automotive repair house somewhat specializing in Range Rovers. While not having in-house resources, they call upon the services of a geared up provider. This resulted in a report confirming a lot of MS-CAN U*** communications loss DTCs.

The provider I'm told has access to LR in the UK.

And Workalot now speaks a new language - CJB, IC, DTC, ATCM, PACM.

Did you ever take a look for that white connector I mentioned in the rear?

You can see it in the middle of the photo taped to the loom with yellow/blue and yellow/white wires going in.
 2011 RRS HSE Luxury 3.0 TDV6 Fuji White on Ebony/Ivory
Born and raised in So Cal. Moved to the UK in 2018 for a few years. Now in Poland and looking at moving back to the UK.

A result!

The Land Rover repair house arranged for a consultant (in Brisbane) to remotely link to the car and conduct a diagnostic session.

In this session a spare climate control module was substituted which worked. When the original climate control module was returned it also worked. All is good.

What can we make of this? A connector that was disturbed, only to come good, is most likely.

Could it be as a contact misbehaved it caused chaos on the MS CAN causing the modules described earlier to malfunction? And once the climate control module realized it had lost communications it took itself off line such that communications were no longer conducted over the faulty contact? This would suggest an open circuit on a stub network (a short circuit would kill the entire network).

Who can know? But what I do now know is that CAN frightens the very people it shouldn't. The official agent in my town fobbed off to an auto sparkly with equal fobbiness (?).

Only Dennis Trigg Motors, Toronto, NSW took on the challenge.

regards,

Workalot

A lot don’t want to tackle it because it’s often a lot of hours to track down the problem. We tore apart a 2010 chasing that connector in the rear. Some three days of checking connections, modules, etc. that racked up a pretty big bill. A bill the customer didn’t want to pay. So shops are reluctant to go diving into things like that knowing it’s going to be a large bill that many customers think should only magically take a few minutes to diagnose and fix. 2011 RRS HSE Luxury 3.0 TDV6 Fuji White on Ebony/Ivory
Born and raised in So Cal. Moved to the UK in 2018 for a few years. Now in Poland and looking at moving back to the UK.

Yes NoExpert, I agree, and understand, that shops will eschew CANbus problems. Two had done this in my case.

But to be fobbed off by an authorised dealer underlies a bigger problem. Why could not the authorised dealer do what Triggs Motors did? That is, invest in the services of an external diagnostic consultant. In my case it was a four hour fix.

Marvellous as CANbus may be it seems so only when its working.

Well, there you go, had my say.

Workalot