I heard on the news last night something about another VED hike on new cars in the autumn budget................. didn't quite get the full story, but it seems odd that there are leaks about what will be in the next budget so long beforehand. 2020 Pangea Green 1st Edition D240 New Defender 110 is here and loving it
2018 Melting Silver Mini Countryman PHEV - soon to be replaced
2015MY Corris Grey SDv6 HSE Dynamic, the best car I have ever owned, totally reliable only a cou0le of rattles in 3 years, now no longer in my care
Also in my garage is a 1996 TDi300 Defender 90 County HT made into a fake CSW

Sometimes leaks are about trying ideas out for size, to see if the public will wear them. I personally think that the government's strategy over the coming two decades will be to make it increasingly difficult and expensive to use i.c.e. cars thus forcing ('encouraging' in government-speak) people to switch to electric vehicles, thus doing their job for them and making a few bob for them while they're at it.

Manufacturers have been slow to tackle the problem of vehicle pollution - JLR are one of the worst imho - health statistics don't lie so something had to happen

By applying pressure through legislation progress is now going to speed up towards a solution

A year ago when I bought the phev I didn't consider the drain on the grid but now I see if everyone did it we'd have a new problem

I've got a hybrid on order now and think that makes sense especially on long journeys where it will beat the phev and it doesn't need charging

I'm keeping both - one for mainly local use on battery and other for longer trips so I've got best of both worlds and I'm looking forward to the future now that everyone is going to up the r&d budget

Mitsubishi and Toyota/Lexus have been leaders in this area and so far reliability is light years ahead of what I got used to so credit where it's due

JLR have some catching up to do on the technology and reliability - time they woke up and smelt the coffee because they're riding on a wave of rising sales/prices/models but the environment hasn't been that important to them Wanted a Series 2 LR since childhood but previously owned MY16 Disco Sport HSE TD4 Auto, MY13 RR Sport Black Edition TDV6 Auto, MY10 RR Sport HSE TDV6 Auto, 2007 Freelander 1 Freestyle TD4 Soft Top, 2009 Freelander 2 GS TD4 Auto, 2007 Freelander 2 GS TD4, 2004 Disco 2 Metropolis Auto, 2002 Disco 2 GS, 2000 Freelander 1 SE TD4 SW

Still hoping for a S2 one day!

JLR even withdrew their 2 Hybrid models (RRS and FFRR) from sale in the U.K. Last autumn with no sign yet of the replacement models coming........... Jaguar iPace launch also seems to have fallen back from spring 2018 to end of 2018. 2020 Pangea Green 1st Edition D240 New Defender 110 is here and loving it
2018 Melting Silver Mini Countryman PHEV - soon to be replaced
2015MY Corris Grey SDv6 HSE Dynamic, the best car I have ever owned, totally reliable only a cou0le of rattles in 3 years, now no longer in my care
Also in my garage is a 1996 TDi300 Defender 90 County HT made into a fake CSW

If you believe health statistics don't lie, read this!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39129270

As regards hybrids, I agree that they make most sense and are 'the future', but the government announcement seemed to rule them out as well.

Perhaps lie was an exaggeration but there is no smoke without fire

Seriously though my daughter is asthmatic -
she grew out of it in her teens until she went to uni in a congested city and relapsed

We know many people who suffer with asthma and cancer is definitely on the rise so the evidence is clear to me

When I'm sat behind a vehicle billowing black stinky smoke I reach for recirculation and consider rerouting  Wanted a Series 2 LR since childhood but previously owned MY16 Disco Sport HSE TD4 Auto, MY13 RR Sport Black Edition TDV6 Auto, MY10 RR Sport HSE TDV6 Auto, 2007 Freelander 1 Freestyle TD4 Soft Top, 2009 Freelander 2 GS TD4 Auto, 2007 Freelander 2 GS TD4, 2004 Disco 2 Metropolis Auto, 2002 Disco 2 GS, 2000 Freelander 1 SE TD4 SW

Still hoping for a S2 one day!

Hybrids not included according to this report at least

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/07/26/uk-hybr...ngine-ban/ Wanted a Series 2 LR since childhood but previously owned MY16 Disco Sport HSE TD4 Auto, MY13 RR Sport Black Edition TDV6 Auto, MY10 RR Sport HSE TDV6 Auto, 2007 Freelander 1 Freestyle TD4 Soft Top, 2009 Freelander 2 GS TD4 Auto, 2007 Freelander 2 GS TD4, 2004 Disco 2 Metropolis Auto, 2002 Disco 2 GS, 2000 Freelander 1 SE TD4 SW

Still hoping for a S2 one day!

muddywheels wrote:

Perhaps lie was an exaggeration but there is no smoke without fire

Seriously though my daughter is asthmatic -
she grew out of it in her teens until she went to uni in a congested city and relapsed

We know many people who suffer with asthma and cancer is definitely on the rise so the evidence is clear to me

When I'm sat behind a vehicle billowing black stinky smoke I reach for recirculation and consider rerouting

muddywheels wrote:

Hybrids not included according to this report at least

http://www.autoblog.com/2017/07/26/uk-hybr...ngine-ban/

I hear you Donny - I moved out into the countryside couple of years ago and walking the dog on a damp winter night is like being back in Manchester in the 70s as a kid choking on smoke from fires

Previous owner fitted a wood burning stove and swmbo loves it lit even though we've got underfloor heating - they stink  Wanted a Series 2 LR since childhood but previously owned MY16 Disco Sport HSE TD4 Auto, MY13 RR Sport Black Edition TDV6 Auto, MY10 RR Sport HSE TDV6 Auto, 2007 Freelander 1 Freestyle TD4 Soft Top, 2009 Freelander 2 GS TD4 Auto, 2007 Freelander 2 GS TD4, 2004 Disco 2 Metropolis Auto, 2002 Disco 2 GS, 2000 Freelander 1 SE TD4 SW

Still hoping for a S2 one day!

The science part.

Diesel specific energy is 13,330 Watt Hour per Kg.

LiPoly specific energy is around 200 Watt Hour per Kg.

Let's assume that a Deisel is 25% efficient and electric is 100%..

13,330/4 = approx 3,000 Wh/kg

That's 15x more power than Batterys per Kg.

Or put it another way to replace a 50liter fuel tank with the equivalent Lipoly you would require:-

50l x 0.8kg/l = 35 kg of fuel.

Equivalent battery would be 520kg in weight...

In truth taking into account electric motors efficiency, the requirement of heating in winter (heating with IC engines uses wast heat, with electric it uses batterys) the extra weight to push along the safety casing for the battery. Etc.

Estimated battery size for replacing 50l of diesel 1,200Kg.

It's a none starter..

Safety.

Put a gallon of petrol into a bucket and throw a match at it, it burns..

Get a large fully charged Lipoly battery hammer a nail through it, on second thoughts look at in on the Web.

The battery discharges all its energy in seconds.

Meanwhile the bucket of petrol is still burning..

Battery lifetimes..
Definition.
Battery looses half of its capacity..

1000 charges..

Replacement cost of current batterys £5000 on a 1.5 ton battery £15,000

No battery technoligy exists that can replace IC engines in the foreseeable future..

I can't argue with the science (above my IQ) but I've got an 8 year battery warranty on the Mitsubishi and 5 years on the Lexus so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it

I'm yet to see any evidence of lots of battery failure on prius which has been around since 97 or the phev since launched in 2013

Fact - I've seen many posts here and Disco regarding catastrophic engine failure on 4+ year old LRs with fsh costing around the figure you say battery replacement would be to replace

Fact - there are less components in EVs to wear/fail and reports I've seen claim double life of ICE is expected

Fact - my running costs have plummeted since ditching LRs and my costs visiting dealers is 0 now - I should of been on mileage allowance before  Wanted a Series 2 LR since childhood but previously owned MY16 Disco Sport HSE TD4 Auto, MY13 RR Sport Black Edition TDV6 Auto, MY10 RR Sport HSE TDV6 Auto, 2007 Freelander 1 Freestyle TD4 Soft Top, 2009 Freelander 2 GS TD4 Auto, 2007 Freelander 2 GS TD4, 2004 Disco 2 Metropolis Auto, 2002 Disco 2 GS, 2000 Freelander 1 SE TD4 SW

Still hoping for a S2 one day!

I often see people worrying about car devaluation.

How does it work for electrical vehicles?

Is anybody going to buy a car close to the battery warranty/life expiry?
How much hit would the resale value take?

Price of a battery pack is not low I understand.

Probably not a problem if you replace your car every 1-3 years I guess '08 RRS TDV8
I converted my diesel RRS to run on an environmentally friendly mixture of caribou fat and baby seals oil

Assume both are hybrids, so battery capacity not critical, 1000 charges normally is around 3 years.

If you take an electric only car then the battries will be like a shrinking fuel tank.

Hybrids are the most efficient version of car propulsion around.

Take a pure electric car..

Most people will charge at night, eco7 half price electricity, this means the electricity will be generated 95% by hydrocarbons, (no Sun at night and winds tend to die down as well)

To generate the electricity and get it to the car charger in the house, assume 45% efficient, from the charger to the car battery take another 3% off. Then you drive the car conversion about 85%.

So total efficiency = 40% converting hydrocarbons to drive the car...

Now take winter time.

Headlights on wipers on heater on. These will on average consume more than diving wheels around, efficiency cut in half, the electric car is now producing more Co2 at the power station than the Deisel car...

A PHEV 'battery' is actually 80 individual 'standard' cells that the car's ECU monitors and balances the charge to give optimum life.

Battery failure is extremely rare and as Muddy says there's an 8 warranty (although they wont change an 8 year old battery for free!)

As time rolls on more and more services will offer to 'repair' battery packs e.g. change faulty cells so its not the big fear most people should have.

I don't think the ban of ICEs will be complete - the nature of streets, domestic parking etc is a long way from being able to support 20mill vehicles charging every 24 hours or less. As for electric 40 tonne trucks - that's just a pipe dream for more than a couple of decades I'd say