Landlord wrote:

So to sum up so far

Presuming most of us have the license issued before 1997 and has B+E (A+E in old money !) we can therefore drive;

RRS towing

an unbraked trailer with a maximum GW less than 750kgs (trailer + load) OR

a braked trailer with a maximum GW of 3500kgs (trailer + load)

Errrrr. No. You cant as it EXCEEDS the unladen weight of the car. You said your boat was around 2700kgs?? So again, no you cant unless you want to take something off and put it in the boot!!!

Regards to the commercial I was going to wait and give you the books to read over the 3 pints (6 if its shandy??) and then post the results...........

Seriously though I'll have a read over the next couple of days and then try and condense it down into something that makes sense!!! Dont you love the EEC!!  Current, M135i in Estoril Blue with more extras than the cast of Ben Hur.

535d m-sport Platinum grey and a few extras.... Gone

X5 3.0 sd in Space Grey, 20's, Dynamic Pack, Memory Pack, Media Pack, Tow Pack, Rear DVD, Panoramic Sunroof, Steps, 7 Seat Pack, Reversing Camera with moving lines, programmable park heat, etc etc etc - Gone

Range Rover Sport Santorini, privacy, dvd, towpack GONE!!!

The wife took her Discovery and twin axel trailer to the Keuring (testing station) here in Belgium, after it had past the tests they informed her that with the gross vehicle weight + the unladen trailer weight then she could only carry a load of 50kg on the trailer, the trailer it's self is 1340kg. She was in the steel construction industry so 50kg was a little short of what she needed so they bought a 7.5 tonne truck.
Ive carried a little over 2tonne on that trailer behind the RRS, the RRS handled it without fuss. Sons of dogs come hither and get flesh
Clan Cameron

Have to disagree with you again on the weight of the trailer versus unladen weight of vehicle. Forgetting limitations on licences then the following appears correct

Quote:

Requirements regarding trailers used on the road are given in the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, as amended and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989, as amended. The following is a summary of the main requirements.

Weight
In the case of light trailers, that is less than 3500kg maximum laden weight, there is not any specified relationship in UK law between the weight of the towing vehicle and the weight of the trailer.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/v...ortrailers

This thread is certainly making you think......

Were gonna need that keg at this rate......  MY10 TDV6 HSE, Alaska White, Ebony with Contrast, Park Heat, Paddle Shift, Privacy, Heated Steering Wheel, Extended & Premium Leather,

MY07 TDV6 HSE, Zermatt Silver, Gone

-----------------------------
1964 Austin Healey 3000

2007 LR Defender

2011 VW Tiguan R Line

This is getting daft now as the POlice were quite happily pulling caravan towers last summer and handing out fines willy nilly for overloaded and unsafe combinations.

Regards to the commercial rules, you think THATS confusing then try working to THREE sets of regs. EU Drivers' Hours rules, AETR Drivers' Hours rules and UK Domestic Drivers' Hours rules. The joys of having European MAsters and Uk masters.

And YOURE buying the keg after that last post!!!

As usual find 2 links to relevant info on the DFT website and cant get em to open!! Typical!!  Current, M135i in Estoril Blue with more extras than the cast of Ben Hur.

535d m-sport Platinum grey and a few extras.... Gone

X5 3.0 sd in Space Grey, 20's, Dynamic Pack, Memory Pack, Media Pack, Tow Pack, Rear DVD, Panoramic Sunroof, Steps, 7 Seat Pack, Reversing Camera with moving lines, programmable park heat, etc etc etc - Gone

Range Rover Sport Santorini, privacy, dvd, towpack GONE!!!

The Police were possibly prosecuting for exceeding maximum permissable towing weight as defined by the manufacturers plate on the vehicle. The offences were probably overloading and or dangerous condition.

If your down near Plymouth in March i'll buy you that pint, I'll have a lemon and lime  MY10 TDV6 HSE, Alaska White, Ebony with Contrast, Park Heat, Paddle Shift, Privacy, Heated Steering Wheel, Extended & Premium Leather,

MY07 TDV6 HSE, Zermatt Silver, Gone

-----------------------------
1964 Austin Healey 3000

2007 LR Defender

2011 VW Tiguan R Line

To clarify

I have rung the FTA Member Advice Line and the details are as follows

The weight to use in your calculations is the Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Authorised Mass or Maximum Permissable Weight (all mean the same thing) and for my V8 Diesel that is 3175, meaning a trailer can only have a MAM of 325kg on Category B. But the MAM of the trailer is less than 750kgs so Category B is okay as we are in the first part of my orginal post - Cat B allows the driver of a vehicle upto 3.5 tonnes to tow a trailer upto 750Kg.

Total combination weight that can be driven on a pre 97 licence is 8250kg MPW.

Remember 4 wheel drive vehicles are not cars they are 'dual-purpose vehicles' and come under different bits of legislation.

There is a case of a person with a large family who used a minibus to take his children to school, occasionally he took neighbours children as well and they sometimes paid him for doing this, but nothing set in stone and this just as would happen any day of the week with the majority of people. Taken to court and found that this was deemed 'hire and reward' and he need a PSV licence, O Licence, Tachograph etc etc. So be careful if you use your vehicle to tow something which does not belong to you or is not being used by you personally. This is as advised by the FTA so please take note.

I trust this is helpful.

Landlord wrote:

The Police were possibly prosecuting for exceeding maximum permissable towing weight as defined by the manufacturers plate on the vehicle. The offences were probably overloading and or dangerous condition.

Keep Calm and Carry On;

Car licences held before 1 January 1997
All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires. This means they are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8.25 tonnes MAM. They also have entitlement to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kgs MAM.

Hence you can drive a minibus or a 7.5 ton lorry in a non-professional term

Drivers who hold subcategory C1+E - limited to 8.25 tonnes MAM, may apply for provisional entitlement to the new subcategory C1+E, in order to take and pass the test which will increase their combined vehicle and trailer entitlement to 12 tonnes MAM. It is not necessary to gain subcategory C1 entitlement first but drivers have to meet higher medical standards, and pass both the category C theory test and the subcategory C1+E practical test.

Towing trailers or caravans with vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes Towing trailers with medium sized vehicles between 3.5 and 7.5 tonnes Towing a trailer with a passenger carrying vehicle Large goods vehicle and passenger carrying vehicle licences held before 1 January 1997

Since 1 January 1997 all drivers who hold category C or D entitlement have been limited to trailers up to 750kgs MAM; Category C+E or D+E must be held in order to tow trailers in excess of this.
Car driving licence first obtained since 1 January 1997
Drivers who passed a car test on or after 1 January 1997 are required to pass an additional driving test in order to gain entitlement to category B+E and all larger vehicles. In addition to the new driving tests, drivers of vehicles which fall within subcategories C1, C1+E, D1 and D1+E also have to meet higher medical standards.


Category
Description
Minimum age

B
Motor vehicles with a MAM of up to 3,500 kg, no more than eight passenger seats, with or without a trailer - weighing no more than 750 kg
17*

B
As category B but with a trailer weighing more than 750 kg. The total weight of the vehicle and the trailer together can’t weigh more than 3,500 kg. The weight of the trailer, when fully loaded, can’t weigh more than the unladen weight of the vehicle
17*

B auto
As category B with automatic transmission
17*

B+E
As category B but with a heavier trailer that isn't covered in the descriptions for category B
17


*Age 16 if you are currently getting Disability Living Allowance at the higher rate (mobility component).

Example of category B with a trailer weighing over 750 kg: Motor vehicle with an unladen weight of 1,500 kg and a maximum weight of 2,000 kg towing a fully loaded trailer with a weight of 1,500 kg – total weight 3500.

Example of category B+E: Motor vehicle with a MAM up to 3,500 kg towing a trailer of any weight over 750 kg. GONE** RRS 3.0SC Silver fully loaded - 2020 110 loving it
BMW R1200GSA Rallye
GONE** Fiesta ST2 - Mrs Wokka's - AMG35 now
GONE**BMW K1600GTLE Matt Blue
GONE**Disco 4 2014 Firenze Red
GONE**Evoque SD4 Dynamic Coupe
GONE**RRS 5.0 SC
GONE**RRS HSE TDV8
GONE**RRS HSE TDV8 (The Crap one)
GONE**FL Facelift
GONE**FL 1
GONE**D1
GONE**BMW R1200GS Adventure
GONE: Kawasaki ZX10R
GONE: Focus ST2
** Chinook CH47 - 2 x T55 engines 3,750 hp each!! 183mph, 2xM134 Miniguns, 1xM60

Quote:

Remember 4 wheel drive vehicles are not cars they are 'dual-purpose vehicles' and come under different bits of legislation.

Quote:

Withdrawn from 1 Jan 2010?

ok, here we go;

Click image to enlarge

It's all so confused that only a lawyer could have written the rules................................. 2020 Pangea Green 1st Edition D240 New Defender 110 is here and loving it
2018 Melting Silver Mini Countryman PHEV - soon to be replaced
2015MY Corris Grey SDv6 HSE Dynamic, the best car I have ever owned, totally reliable only a cou0le of rattles in 3 years, now no longer in my care
Also in my garage is a 1996 TDi300 Defender 90 County HT made into a fake CSW

..all I wanted was to find a rental company for a a trailer.....

Anyway, thanks to you guys, I know I don't need one anymore and the weight of the RRS + trailers + Mini will most likely be above the max on a B license.... Range Rover Vogue ‘17 TDV6

Gone: Range Rover Vogue '11 4.4TDV8, Range Rover Sport ‘59, Range Rover Sport ‘56

Ok I'm just back from a visit to the local main VOSA office. These are the people that enforce these laws and will pull you and charge you for breach of the rules and regs. Spoke to an EXTREMELY helpful chap there who is also an ex traffic officer. Spent an hour with him as he went through all the rules, laws and advisories for towing trailers no matter what the size of the tow car and trailer. He himself admits the laws governing this do seem to contradict themselves in places and are quite "involved". Im going to try and type them up now and "hopefully we will have a "proven" set of rules for this once and for all.

To summarise for the meantime, to a certain extent just about everything posted has been right, Landlord, your quote about there being NO law to cover trailer weights is PARTLY right as you will see from the posts.

The exemptions are there as a legal "get around" but have to be adhered to VERBATIM to avoid prosecution.

The definition of dual purpose I am told runs to Paragraphs and would need a decent transport specialised lawyer to work through. I think there is a link to it that he gave me.

Below are the licence rules:-

Maximum authorised mass (MAM)
Here reference is made to the maximum authorised mass (MAM) of vehicles and trailers. This should be taken to mean the permissible maximum weight, also known as the gross vehicle weight.

Car licences held before 1 January 1997

All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires. This means they are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8.25 tonnes MAM. They also have entitlement to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kgs MAM.

Drivers who hold subcategory C1+E - limited to 8.25 tonnes MAM, may apply for provisional entitlement to the new subcategory C1+E, in order to take and pass the test which will increase their combined vehicle and trailer entitlement to 12 tonnes MAM. It is not necessary to gain subcategory C1 entitlement first but drivers have to meet higher medical standards, and pass both the category C theory test and the subcategory C1+E practical test.

Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats
Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.

For example:

a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
Whereas

the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle's handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold.

Towing caravans
As for towing caravans, existing general guidance recommends that the laden weight of the caravan does not exceed 85% of the unladen weight of the car. In the majority of cases, caravans and small trailers towed by cars should be within the new category B threshold.

An exemption from the driver licensing trailer limit allows a category B licence holder to tow a broken down vehicle from a position where it would otherwise cause danger or obstruction to other road users.

By passing a category B test national categories F (tractor), K (pedestrian controlled vehicle) and P (moped) continue to be added automatically.


Category B+E: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM towing trailers over 750kgs MAM
Category B+E allows vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM to be combined with trailers in excess of 750kgs MAM. In order to gain this entitlement new category B licence holders have to pass a further practical test for category B+E. There is no category B+E theory test. For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E.

Another point that the VOSA guy made is that youre vehicle has on the front slam panel in a RRS is a weight plate which contains 4 lines of info which are the Gross Vehicle Weight, the Gross Train Weight and both the front and rear axle weights. The Gross Train Weight should neve be exceeded as that puts you in contravention of the law regarding towing weights. In the case of my MY09 RRS this is 6570kgs
but obviously will be different on each of the owners respective vehicles.

I know this is a bit long winded but trust me the above are how it is all explained on both the Direct gov website and how the bulk of it was explained to me this afternoon. Who said I couldnt do short hand when taking notes frantically??? This is a subject that has more twists and turns than the Stelios Pass from Top Gear!!

The bottom line appears to be that provided that you do not exceed the train weight of the vehicle as displayed on the plate of your vehicle and your licence covers you then you are within the law UNLESS you are using the vehcle in ANY business sense at that weight then the need for a tacograph comes into play along with the need to be keeping drivers hours and work records and then we also start getting into the Working Time Directive for mobile workers too!!!!

Seriously though, if in doubt then give VOSA a call. They couldnt have done much more to explain it all to me. Current, M135i in Estoril Blue with more extras than the cast of Ben Hur.

535d m-sport Platinum grey and a few extras.... Gone

X5 3.0 sd in Space Grey, 20's, Dynamic Pack, Memory Pack, Media Pack, Tow Pack, Rear DVD, Panoramic Sunroof, Steps, 7 Seat Pack, Reversing Camera with moving lines, programmable park heat, etc etc etc - Gone

Range Rover Sport Santorini, privacy, dvd, towpack GONE!!!

Last edited by 4wheeldriver on Wed Jan 13 2010 4:56pm. Edited 1 time in total

Im now going to lie down in a dark room and let my brain cool down!!!!!  Current, M135i in Estoril Blue with more extras than the cast of Ben Hur.

535d m-sport Platinum grey and a few extras.... Gone

X5 3.0 sd in Space Grey, 20's, Dynamic Pack, Memory Pack, Media Pack, Tow Pack, Rear DVD, Panoramic Sunroof, Steps, 7 Seat Pack, Reversing Camera with moving lines, programmable park heat, etc etc etc - Gone

Range Rover Sport Santorini, privacy, dvd, towpack GONE!!!