Biggles wrote:

Sounds like the chipping war has started,
But do agree it would be nice to see a so called shoot out and true figures published.
After all competition is good for us all.

Gerry

Lets make the test simple and relevant to want 'Jo Public' wants i.e. performance

Rolling road power and torque figures, smoke test and on-road performance figures.

Chris

Hi Chris,

I am happy to do that, however whilst everyone is concerned by the performance, I'm pretty certain that their vehicle probably being their second biggest financial purchase, would also like to know that the performance is also safe, would you not aggree That is why I stated that we should carry out an EGT test, this can of course be done on the dyno & logged versus engine speed, we will then allow a copy of our manifold material analysis to be published along with the results. The reason I wanted a magazine to cover it was to make it impartial, as this can be difficult due to us supplying to 90% of all the rolling road tuning companies in the UK.

I assume we will be doing this on a standard vehicle, & using the same vehicle, the 1st test being std, the second test being either yours or our conversion, the 3rd test being back to std, the 4th test being the remaining conversion, & a final test back to std?

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,

Gerry

This is getting interesting.
How about somebody from the forum having the chance to nominate their own sport for the test and for the privelidge they could benefit from ownership of the superior chip!
What does everybody think of this, I for one would sure like to see the results of the competition. Even though I am happy with my Turbochip.
It would be nice for an impartial view from a forum member. Its out there somewhere. Second V10 Treg on the drive at the moment.

Gerry

Can I ask if you are suggesting that the Turbochip conversions are not safe? EGT is always a concern but ultimately the ecu can 'pull the power down' if it rises too high. I have demonstrated this on a standard vehicle in Germany driving flat out for over 30mins.

If you can find a magazine willing to cover the feature then let me know but we will need an independant rolling road and scrutineer etc

Also, can I remind forum members that 'plug in' boxes are not chips but rather an add on unit that 'fools' the vehicle ecu with 'false' or 'adjusted' information so that it performs differently.

I'd rather let the ecu know exactly what the engine is doing

Hi Chris,

I am not for one minute saying that your product is unsafe.

The reason the EGT test is so vital is that it is of primary importance to the safety & longevity of the engine. Another important reason is that it stops any cheating (not that I'm saying you would cheat), In the past we have submitted vehicles for magazine & manufacturer evaluation & found that other vehicles with competitors products have been quicker or more powerful on the day of the test. However it is quite clear to see during testing that the smoke output is horrendous probably due to an excessively rich AFR (Air/Fuel ratio) & if measured would most defineately have unsafe EGT's. However as this is not tested during the magazine feature (OEM manufacturers are a bit more savvy, hence we have several OEM deals ) it appears that our competitors have products that are more powerful than ours, but all they have done is produced a 'press special' Unfortunately for the unsuspecting customer, the unit that they purchase is producing no where near the power or on road performance of the unit tested by the magazine, sad but true! Having been dissapointed by our results & being self critical, we have then purchased competitors products & tested them back to back on our own 4WD dyno & on road using datalogging & a Racelogic V-box & have proven time & again our product is better. So hopefully now you can see my reason for the EGT test.

On the point about the 'pull power down' if the EGT rises too high, I can't see how this is possible, as the exhaust has no thermocouple in it, it does however reduce the boost if the charge air temperature (C.A.T) is beyond a certain value, however the C.A.T (in the intake manifold after the intercooler) takes much longer to react to prolonged excessive turbo boost caused by excessive AFR than EGT, the damage can be done long before the C.A.T goes over-limit. We offer 1 standard failsafe over & above the manufactures which is change in coolant temperature rapidly over time, (which is linked to mechanical stress or excessive EGT exposure) in which case we can reduce the power output, we also offer as an option the ability to run an EGT feedback loop, that monitors EGT versus time & can adapt the map as neccesary, no other company in the world can offer this on an upgrade, even if they are manipulating the ECU source code.

Regarding the 'plug in box' not being a 'chip' we use the same micro-processor as is found in many manufactures ECU's (not a cheap PIC as found in other diesel upgrade boxes, our unit is the same unit we use on works motorsport race & rally cars, just we've adapted the programming for diesels) so power, speed & capability is the same as most manufacturers 32bit ECU's. You are correct in that we do modify signals, but I'm sure you understand that all an engine needs to make a certain amount of power is a certain amount of fuel injected at a certain time, mixed with a certain amount of air, compressed to a certain pressure (not much you can do about compression electronically unless you get into cam angles & profiles, which if they are controllable electronically we can control them) Therfere if all systems, whether it be a standard ECU with the code tweaked, a plug in box (like ours that can adjust fuel, timing & boost - not a cheap fuel only unit!) or a stand alone ECU such as EFI technology out of an F1 car, or some crackpot with levers & bob weights, are injecting the same amount of fuel at the same point at the same level of air intake (boost) 'THEY WILL ALL PRODUCE THE SAME POWER!' Now yes some might say I'm biased as I own the company however I have tested all these different methods, so I am in a position to say what works. The crackpot with the levers & weights, will get the same result, but it's not very practical having to adjust things like this whilst driving The F1 ECU is perfect but extremely expensive & slightly overkill for our needs. The ECU chip source code tweak is effective, however unless it can be tuned live (i will come to this later) & not many can, it would take several thousands of dyno tests to arrive at the optimum point of power or economy or a balance of both depending on driver demand, due to the fact that an estimate of the data value & location would need to be made, an adjustment made, & a test conducted, results analysed, then the process repeated again & again with a slightly different value to ascertain the difference made, this would have to be repeated for every level of engine load & engine speed, no easy task, I have been there & done that 10 years ago using specially developed Bosch software on F3 Opel-Speiss engines - never again You then come to our product which is the accumulation of over 30,000 vehicles dyno tested by ourselves & approximately 100,000 more vehicles 'LIVE' tuned by our authorised dyno tuners (which reads as a who's who of performance tuning) We have a unique product that allows us to change the quantity of fuel, the point at which it's injected, the amount of boost pressure present all referenced 3 dimensioanlly against engine speed & load. As an example we can hold the vehicle on our dyno at 1000 rpm, at full throttle, change the amount of fuel, the injection point, & the boost pressure, so we can twiddle a few knobs on our interface linked to our laptop & see whether more fuel with less boost with more injection advance is better than more boost with less fuel & more advance, we can adjust these values 'LIVE' & INSTANTLY see the optimum point for power with safety, with the dyno still controlling the engine speed to 1000rpm, we then lift of the throttle until we have acheived 95% load & repeat the process, then again at 90%, so on & so forth, when we get down to around 50% load, maximum power is less important & economy takes priority, so then again we can quickly & easily find the right balance between fuel, timing, & boost to give the best economy. The dyno control speed is then adjusted to 1200rpm & the whole process is repeated, & so it goes every 200rpm & every 5% load. The process using ECU download procedures with the engine switched off everytime you need to make a change, would take about a week to arrive at the same level of optimisation, but having reversed engineered some code for fun (sad I know ) I have found that often, nothing more than a global change has been made to the complete fuel & boost tables, so really no better than the most basic PIC plug in boxes. Think about it this way we have been developing our diesel range for around 4 years & we cover about 60 vehicles (we have an R & D facility that put's most factory works teams to shame, hence we do a lot of factory works work if that makes sense ) some of our competitors have several thousand cars covered, so they must have one hell of an R & D facility

Anyway sorry for the rant guys, I'm just passionate about our products.

Cheers,

Gerry

Gerry,

Again, I will acknowledge your product is a very high quality 'plug in' box but thats exactly what it is and it is 'fooling' the vehicle ecu whatever way you put it in either in 2 sentences or 2 pages of text.

Perhaps one day you might be couteous enough to acknowledge that Turbochip also produce a high quality prouduct

Just so that forum members are aware....if any forum member would rather have a 'plug-in' box for their RR Sport TDV6 we can supply such a product from a company called Pbox www.pbox.cc who are the biggest box suppliers in europe.

They used our Disco3 TDV6 as their development tool to try and get the same performance out of their 'plug in' box as the Turbochip and the best they could do was 40bhp...anymore and the car disappeared in a cloud of smoke

Plug in boxes have their place in the market but so do professsionally remapped engine management systems.... I know what I would rather choose

Gentlemen. gentlemen,

We seem to be moving away from the idea of the independent test, can we return to that idea.

I have today emailed a number of respected magazines to see if they are willing to do the evaluation, I will let you know what resposnses I get. 11 XFR

08 RRS TDV8 HSE with the good bits taken off the first RRS

05 RR Sport TDV6 HSE Rimini Red (Rimini Brown at events), Stormer wheels (original 19's for events), PTI, towpack. TV tuner (now driven by an employee)

1923 Ford Model T (serious ground clearance)


FFRR TDV8 Vogue my07 (wife won't let me use it in case I go to Salisbury with VA in it)

plus some other bits n' pieces

Any Cliff notes from the last posting from Dastek? 2006 RRS HSE, Chawton White, Alpaca with Cherry Wood Trim (Luxury Interior Pkg)

Previously: 1998 Range Rover 4.0 SE

Hi Chris,

I thank you for your acknowledgement, & I would of course pay you the same compliment if I was in the position to do so, but as I've never tested your products, I can't comment one way or the other.

I think you are missing the point about what an engine wants, we do it externally, you do it internally. If you can tune the data as accurately as us, then I will be the first to congratulate you.

I assume your pbox does not adjust the injection point or the boost pressure, therefore it will never match your output.

I agree everything has it's place in the market, the more truthful info there is out there in the market about capabilities the better it is for the customers.

M@verick sorry about that, one can get a bit carried away sometimes Please let me know how you get on.

Hi rhodyrover, sorry I'm not quite sure what you mean?

Cheers,

Gerry

I sent a few emails yesterday to various motoring magazine editors. Sorry but I left out Max Power - hope no one minds!

I got this reply this morning from Rob Aherne, the Editor at Autocar (for you non Brits - one of the most respected UK car mags) I will let you know what else comes up from the others including the specialist 4x4 mags I have contacted.

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Hi Stuart

Thanks for the note. Funnily enough, we were kicking around the idea of a diesel tuning story in a recent features meeting.

Personally, I'm undecided. I'm interested in this stuff myself, but reader reaction when we test chipped or modified cars (eg the Morego Clio of a couple of weeks ago) isn't the most favourable. Many people think, 'All very well, but I wouldn't do it to my car because of insurance/worrying about it going bang', and I have a degree of sympathy with them.

If this doesn't sound too vague, we'll give it some thought. Be interested to know what you decide to do with your RR Sport (I'm slated to have one on long-term test next year).

Regards
Rob

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Letters declaring interest in this subject from a few on this forum might tip the balance between running a test and not and from a journalists point of view the war of words going on here must make it slightly more appealing.

Rob’s email address as published in Autocar is;

robaherne@haynet.com


Cheers all.





[/i] 11 XFR

08 RRS TDV8 HSE with the good bits taken off the first RRS

05 RR Sport TDV6 HSE Rimini Red (Rimini Brown at events), Stormer wheels (original 19's for events), PTI, towpack. TV tuner (now driven by an employee)

1923 Ford Model T (serious ground clearance)


FFRR TDV8 Vogue my07 (wife won't let me use it in case I go to Salisbury with VA in it)

plus some other bits n' pieces

Just to let forum members know....Turbochip has just agreed a deal to supply the biggest franchised Landrover dealer group in the UK with all their 'in house' performance upgrades.

We are not in a position to disclose the dealer group but it wont take forum members to work out who it is!

Apologies Gerry but they evaluated your product as well (at a much cheaper price I hasten to add) and have decided to buy from us instead.

Apparently they were concerned that if a 'plug in' box malfunctioned or the vehicle had an unrelated breakdown that it might be discovered by Landrover Assist and leave the dealer in a very difficult posistion when it came to a warranty claim etc

As for PBox it does indeed adjust the injection point but it leaves boost pressure alone

Hi Chris,

Well done as you said every product has it's market place & for the needs of that particular customer, your unit better suited them.

I am slightly unsure how the Pbox adjsuts the point of injection as it takes no reference to crank position, as I've just had a look at a wiring diagram of their system

Would you also care to answer some of my previous technical queries, as I'm sure some of the good people here would like to have a better understanding of the differences between the various systems on the market.

Cheers,

Gerry

Gerry

Remind me of the questions?

Please remember we are engine management modifiers not 'plug in' box suppliers like yourselves

Morning Chris,

Surely it wasn't too difficult to read back through my post & offer a good technical reply to what I've said.

I will leave it to the good members to reply & say if they would like a technical disccusion on the merits of the different methods of improving power. If they do, I will post my questions to you in an easy to understand format.

I am still happy to go head to head with you, providing you are happy to measure EGT, so that we don't get a test special program!

Members please let us know how you want this to go.

Cheers,

Gerry